Wednesday, 13 August 2014
Pedantic...Maybe. Precise...Hardly
Evelyn
Here is some information that speaks to freezing point depression which provides an overview of what happens when you place salt in water.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freezing-point_depression
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The vote to award a contract for a treatment facility for melting snow was tied and therefore it failed.
The debate was fulsome. Councillor Pirri had the last word. He stated I had presented arguments which were " false". He provided no documentation so support his accusation. But the Chair allowed it to stand.
The Councilor forwarded the above after the meeting to illustrate his point.
I have opened the link.
I am often criticized for straying from the question. Rightfully so. I acknowledge having a great deal to say upon just about any subject Nd having trouble sticking to the point. In my own defense, I must say, I love the language I speak .It may well be a facet of my years my experience ,things I have seen or a combination of all of the above.
But you know, I would have dearly liked to hear Councillor Pirri ,the youngest of us all, attempt to use in a Council debate ,scientific jargon from a Wikipedia link to support his vote to support a million dollar facility to treat melting snow without a lick of salt in it.
I sure hope that fact that the project was defeated means we shall hear no more about it. I listened to Cllr Pirri's remarks carefully. Basically he voted for it because of the risk of offending the province. That seems a very poor excuse for spending the money of Auroran taxpayers IMO.
ReplyDeleteThe councilor sending a wikipedia link is laugjable.Researchers and post secondary institutions frown upon citing it as a source.We saw how Auroras info on that site.was filled with false info during the last term.Not sn intelligent move by the young councilor.
DeleteWhat exactly does Cllr Pirri's age have to do with anything?
ReplyDeleteFace it, you just like the sound of your own voice, as the saying goes.
ReplyDeleteAlso, what does his age have to do with "the youngest of us all" Cllr Pirri's ability to make a point?
12:17, at least he goes looking for answers and doesn't think he knows them all.
ReplyDeleteWe tell the kids not to rely on Wikipedia. Given that we have written material that they use, we Know they do not have dependable sources.
ReplyDelete
ReplyDelete@12:17 - My understanding is that, upon scrutiny, Wikipedia is roughly as accurate as the best collections of encylopedias have ever been (i.e. Britannica). They've studied this, apparently.
see the link below
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4530930.stm
Having said that, the real point to be made is that the specific link that Cllr. Pirri presents does not effectively challenge Evelyn's point. It merely changes the temperature of it.
Below is a Wikipedia excerpt, on the solubility of salt in water. FYI NaCl is the chemical formula for Salt.
"When dissolved in water, the sodium chloride framework disintegrates as the Na+ and Cl− ions become surrounded by the polar water molecules. These solutions consist of metal aquo complex with the formula [Na(H2O)8]+, with the Na-O distance of 250 pm. The chloride ions are also strongly solvated, each being surrounded by an average of 6 molecules of water.[4] Solutions of sodium chloride have very different properties from pure water. The freezing point is −21.12 °C (−6.02 °F) for 23.31 wt% of salt, and the boiling point of saturated salt solution is near 108.7 °C (227.7 °F).[5] From cold solutions, salt crystallises as the dihydrate NaCl·2H2O."
The link for the above
this excerpt is below.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_chloride
So, at a temperature ABOVE -21.12 celcius, the salt melts the snow and is then dissolved in the resulting water, which would have otherwise been frozen at 0 degrees. That is indeed the whole point - melt the snow and ice so that tires can grip the road underneath. The snow/salt water solution then flows where gravity takes it, meaning, the salt does not take up residence in the snow.
At temperatures BELOW -21.12 degrees celcius, I believe that the salt would remain among the snow and ice. So on those days, the snow that is picked up would have salt in its midst.
This link
http://www.worldweatheronline.com/Newmarket-weather-averages/Ontario/CA.aspx
provides the average daily temperatures throughout the year for Newmarket (closest to Aurora on the site). The coldest months, on average, are January and February, with an average daily temperature of -9 degrees celcius. Now of course, we all know that there are some cold days that are below -21 degrees - but not many. Less than a handful each year, I would bet. Remember, we are NOT talking wind-chill - just temp.
So, notwithstanding Cllr. Pirri's freezing point depression point, for all practical purposes, it seems that Evelyn's theory is correct. That is, the salt melts the snow and ice (yay - fewer traffic accidents!) and the resultant liquid solution goes where Newton knew it would.
One more thing. In places that DO have sustained temperatures below -21.12 celcius, they don't use salt on the roads. They use dirt as a grit to provide traction ON TOP OF the ice. Now you know why.
ReplyDeleteThere seemed to be a great of discussion about risk to the town from the potential actions of the province.
The salt issue and its eventual fate seems not to be a mandate or policy requirement from the province.
A snow melting unit would handle very little of the total snowfall on the town, would be costly to purchase and to operate. The concept that if we had one we could rent it out to other municipalities is obviously one proposed in total ignorance.
Council members no doubt are aware that all provincial highways get liberal doses of a sand/salt mixture, usually applied before the snow has started to fall and in anticipation of its arrival based on weather forecasts. These latter are occasionally wrong and so an unnecessary application of sand/salt was spread on provincial roads within the snowfall warning area.
Possibly it is the province that is at risk of being sued by municipalities for the gratuitous salt application that could contaminate local water sources.
It usually pays to think before one speaks Councillor Pirri.
Mayor Dawe - you don't seem to have learned very much in almost four years.
11:49
ReplyDeleteIn the early days of the term, the new councillors were given a lot of slack because they were novices. Cllr Pirri more than the rest because he was so young & inexperienced. But the time has passed and now it is simply a fact - He is the youngest. Period.
For the record, I voted for him...then.
Ms Buck references Pirri's age because she likes to practice ageism. How can he possible know as much as she, she is older.
ReplyDeleteOf course that does not factor in the education of the person - only their age.
Ka-Non's post is very accurate. The lowered freezing point is variable depending on the concentration of the salt.
Also for the record; he's the only one who actually grew up in Aurora, isn't he?
ReplyDeleteGiven Pirri's age and the age of some of our registered candidates it looks like the "wind of change"
ReplyDeleteMy, but there is a large amount of angst today. With some name-calling and labelling thrown in. Anyone who listened to the council meeting heard that only a small amount of snow was to be treated. It was voted down.
ReplyDeleteQuit the fear-mongering. There never was a real threat to the environment.
Councillor - I know you are neither a chemist nor engineer but thank god you have a lot common sense and experience.
ReplyDeleteAre you considering running for Mayor? Common sense and experience are commodities we seem to be short on.
ReplyDeleteThis is a really stupid topic - it's August!!!
But inspired by this stupidity I found a company across the border - Michigan Melters - that makes snow melting equipment of various sizes. The largest one has a capacity of 30 tons per hour. I have no idea what a ton of snow looks like. Wetter snow would take up fewer square feet than fluffier stuff. A cubic foot of water weights 62.5 pounds. Now, how to relate this to snow, dry and fluffy or heavy and a back killer I don't know.
But I don't think investing in such a contraption would be a money-making business because they use fuel. "Roughly two gallons of fuel per ton of 'dry' snow melted; plus the correction for the efficiency of the machine under normal conditions. Heavy wet snow will melt at a reduced rate."
I hope all the aficionados of snow removal, shovelling, ploughing, snowball fighters, snow melters, whatever, can find your kicks in magazines until winter comes roaring in with the "real stuff."
Get serious!
Kudos, 13:13
ReplyDeleteTo think anyone on council is ready to go into more debt with this snow contraption, because there is a potential health risk when they can’t define what that risk is!! Shameful!
ReplyDeleteOh so now you have a new councillor to bully ...... enough already, we have enough of it from Pullano, we don't need it from you.
ReplyDelete@14:12 we could use a complete fresh perspective
ReplyDelete16:24
ReplyDeleteWe tried that the last election. Just be careful not to recycle old products with new packaging
10:19
ReplyDeleteNot sure what you mean. I see some questions about an argument presented by Cllr Pirri at the council meeting. Nothing to do with AP at all although that topic is sorely tempting.
16:24 – “Fresh perspective”? How about someone other than councillor Buck trying to stop all these visionary projects that can, will and already has lead us into higher taxes and debt. I really don’t care if a member of council is 20 something or a hundred and something years of age.
ReplyDelete"I really don’t care if a member of council is 20 something or a hundred and something years of age."
ReplyDeleteJust as long as he/she is negative, closed-minded, and isn't progressive, right, 19:48?
Honestly, 23:28. Just how far behind the crowd are you? Do you regret not having paid enough attention during grade school? Keep telling yourself that you are doing the best you can. You are!
ReplyDelete23:48- Ah…so raising taxes and getting into debt is positive, opened minded and progressive? Let me guess…You’re one of those “visionaries” that want to “better our quality of life”. News Flash!...higher taxes and debit is not going to do that.
ReplyDeleteWhat are you babbling about, 20:46?
ReplyDelete